Thursday, April 12, 2007

Unchosen






The Book: Unchosen, The Hidden Lives of Hassidic Rebels. By Hella Winston. Nonfiction.

This book, from what I gathered from several other blogs, had caused quite a storm after its release, due to the controversial topic. As with everything, I'm late for this discussion too. That isn't unusual and I'm not making excuses. Just about now that I'm stumbling out of the cave, blinking, and pouncing on very old stuff with amazemed appreciation as if it's just been invented. It doesn't matter to me that to everyone else this is old news.

Unchosen is very well written, and uses many real-life examples of Hassidic Rebels. It had a nice sprinkle of drama, a lot of the real Williamsburg facts and I dare say, it must have been an eye-opener to nearly anyone. I consumed it quickly because its subject is near and dear to me, it wasn't too big, hard to hold or endless, and it evoked an interest in its characters.

1. Issues from Inside: Some, of course, are bothered by the book due its general subject. Despite the fact that the book clearly proclaims to be about the rebels only, it still does not do a lot of PR for the non-rebels, which naturally will cause a stir. I have been doing some surfing, trying to find a good argument against it in all the ruckus, but have yet to find one. One of our faults is that we refuse to accept that we have faults. I'm sure those stories wouldn't be so tragic if we would embrace the subject with more compassion and less kicking and screaming (such antisemites!!!).

2. The Rebel's Perspective: Anonymous (in a comment) claims that the main character is a 'well known loony' and therefore does no justice for the rebel. First off, there were a fair amount of other examples, and the main character enables you to see a balance of general rebel issues and intriguing personal struggles. Also, it seems you're judging the character from your first hand knowledge, not from the book's portrayal, as being unfamiliar with this individual in real life, "Yossi" didn't seem like a 'loony' at all. I am wondering what it is about him that you felt incorrectly painted the 'misfits'. Is it his emotional problems, the complicated relationship with his family, his inability to settle in the goyish world, his intellectual sophistication, his experiences in 'modernizing'? Please expound.

3. Chassidis and Facts: Most of the cultural and religious experiences mentioned were very familiar to me, as if occurring right in my own home. A lot of research seemed to have gone into it, for which I commend the author.


4. Project Chosen: I imagine even a strong believer from our community must also be a little impacted by the new dimension this story brings to those that object to our system. However, I think the book leaves you wondering how anyone in their right mind could actually live with our restrictions without wondering WTF this lifestyle is about. The introduction does note that many people are happy, but how one would be happy under our circumstances you cannot logically figure. In truth, many people are happy, and I think it would be an even greater challenge to crack and write about the underlying cause for such a demanding, controlled, yet (often) content society.

5. Update: I wonder if the statistics have changed since, if more people left the community, if people now have more comfort when leaving, and if footsteps is successfully putting men and women through college. From what I gather online, these outlets are attracting the repressed like ants over cookie crumbs.


!. Next Up: Hopefully a book & review by guest 'Rabbi'!!

36 comments:

Skeleton said...

Very well said, Shpitz. If I may, I'll try to offer my perspective on #2.

Hela's book is indeed honest, unbiased, and fairly well-written. However, what the previous commenter was saying, and the feeling I also got, was that she glossed over the fact that Yossi is a deeply disturbed individual, in more than one way. Whether she did so intentionally, so that the reader could reach their own conclusions, or because of political correctedness, or because of confidentiality agreements, etc. etc. etc. is impossible for us to know. We can wonder whether Yossi "freid out" because of, or in spite of, his emotional problems. Whether he would've been a troubled African American, Hispanic, or WASP kid had he been born into different circumstances. Perhaps an unintended side point of Hela's was a highlight of how mental/emotional difficulties do not get adequate care or attention in our communities, allowing children like Yossi to grow up into problematic adults. Because yes, unfortunately, a very large percentage of our OTD youth/adults are not emotionally or morally healthy as yidden or goyim. In andere verter, nisht tzi gott in nisht tzi leit. Whether it is so because people who are predisposed to 'trouble' have a bigger chance of going OTD, or whether their problems are a result of a crushing community, is more complicated and has to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. But I did feel that Hela did not cover this aspect adequately.

FTR, I do not know who this "Yossi" is.

Somewhat related to the above and another troubling aspect of the book was that there was only one "good" example of someone who was able to establish herself in a comfortable and stable manner. There was precious little mention of the intellectual rebels, and a lot about how all any of us ever want to do is go to nightclubs and wear jeans, when to many of those things are just 'pitchifkes', not of paramount importance in relation to the Big Picture.

On 4., you can hardly hold that against the book. Explaining happiness is impossible. It's a feeling that one experiences, something that is felt. The Western mind is paradoxically open-minded and narrow-minded at the same time. We've tried to spread civilization and democracy and in the process destroyed vast groups of people who were content for centuries without it. People like Gandhi and Mother Teresa were respected as great leaders, but their lifestyles of ascetism, humility, self-denial could hardly have been popular in a country that's bound to "the pursuit of happiness".

Chaim Chusid said...

Madame Pointe,

I am firm believer in the right for every individual to express themselves as they see fit.

That being said, Lady Winston chose to express herself in an obviously biased way.

How can I take her writings seriously when it all seems slanted towards one position?

I remain,
Chaim

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Skeleton - I hear you. On the emotional issue I agree. The character seemed to have emotional problems, the book didn't try to pretend he didn't, but it didn't cover that attaquetly either, come to think of it. As for the materialistic rebel versus the intellectual rebel, I think that you'll see a lot more of the former than of the latter. Those that are intellectual rebels are a lot less likely to go OTD, so they're a lot harder to find. At best effort, I'm sure a researcher will still have a hard time to find the real balance between what it is that makes someone revolt and how frequently it is which. I'm sure that there are many thinkers out there that are a storm of thoughts but don't share it with anyone.

Totally Sheitle, or Rechosen.com, the blogger, claims that the book tries to sell the rebel as a intellectual who can no longer tolerate the oppression of thoughts. Go figure, everyone sees it differently.

As for 4, I don't hold it against the book, but the book just made me wonder about that.

Chaim Chussid - And look who we have here! Always good to see you around.

The book is a research on the rebel. What's biased about that? That it focuses on one part of our community only? Surely someone that judges the entire community only out of the rebel's eyes is silly. Still, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong about doing an essay on one part only.

hoezentragerin said...

"There was precious little mention of the intellectual rebels,"

Skeleton, I too used to believe that there are two different types of rebels-- the ones that leave for *emotional reasons*, and those that are driven by *intellectual convictions*.

I am no longer convinced that there are these two distinct dichotomies out there. Intellectual people too can have psycho/social issues that cause/ enable them to question their religion and way of life.

Another point; Once our *intellectual rebel* has giving up on yiddishkiet and God, what is to stop him/her from embracing those very same temptations that lured the *emotional rebels* away in the first place?

Bal Devorem's and Hasidic Rebel's drugapaids, are good examples.

Skeleton said...

SS- The "intellectual rebel" point is deeper than that. I'm not just referring to the closet heretics or MO chassidim. Truthfully, how many of us, even the content ones, are really 100% content and think our societies are perfect? There are very many "intellectual rebels", people who realize in one way or another that our societies are deeply flawed, but they are still content enough not to take it any further. However, when confronted by an outsider to our communities, be it a non-Jew, a secular Jew, or even a Yid from another 'kreiz', they will defend every single shikane publicly regardless of how they feel about it privately. Perhaps it's a manifestation of the "I'm fat, and I can say so, but if you dare say I'm fat I'll kill you" syndrome, that we can be critical of ourselves but wouldn't let an outsider do that to us. This is a silent group, albeit minority, that Hela did not get wind of, although there's a whiff of it in the daughter of her hostess. Nevertheless, it is a group that does exist.

Skeleton said...

HT, there's probably little distinction practically, and a lot of blurring of the lines, but a main difference between materialistic rebellion and intellectual rebellion would probably be that intellectual rebels would have an easier time "crossing over" and leading relatively civilized irreligious lives, notwithstanding the occasional trip or pot habit, whereas unfortunately many of the "materialistic" or "emotional" rebels struggle with issues that are unacceptable in the secular world as well. Substance abuse/addiction, crime, treating women like sh*t, or even worse, whores, are common. Yes, of course there are 'frum' people who are guilty of the above as well, but for a 'rebel' to choose to keep his head in the toilet while his/her feet leave his/her community is pathetic.

"Intellectual people too can have psycho/social issues that cause/ enable them to question their religion and way of life."

Thank you. Beautiful point not at all touched by Hela Winston.

hoezentragerin said...

Skeleton, Of course I understand your point. However, there are countless *intellectual rebels* too, who live on the fringe, plagued by the loneliness, rejection, guilt, and the emotional abuse they have internalized over the years.

Heshy Shnizler is but one example;

http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0601/22/sm.01.html

(scroll to the bottom of the page)

Skeleton said...

Heshy Schnitzler co-wrote "Mendy", a bittersweet indie that could very well be his autobiography. See it if you can.

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Skeleton - Great point you made there about the rebel that won't admit it to an outsider.
Is Mendy available on DVD? I remember his bit on TV widely circulated.

Also a Chussid made me aware of his response to the book. You might find it interesting.

http://alsoachussid.blogspot.com/2005/12/i-accuse-hella-winston.html

Frumbabe - Good point, though 'tlita' doesn't have the same ring as 'shlita'. Hakatana? Hmm.

Anonymous said...

I just read alsoachussid's post on Hella. I also read his post called "I have a dream." I must tell you that he comes across as being much more anti-hassidim than she.

http://alsoachussid.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_archive.html

Anonymous said...

Skeleton,
There needs to be a distinction between those who leave their families, friends, social life to follow their hearts, minds, or penis, with those disenchanted who opt, cowardly perhaps, to stay put while rant about it.

The former are rebels, those can be found in any religion, society, and culture. The latter well, in my opinion (humbly put forward) they lead an excruciating double life in order to placate their sense of responsibility to their family and surroundings.

Can these be found elsewhere, in settings other than strict cultish societies? Hardly.

Many of those who are disillusioned with Judaism for pure intellectual reasons are obscured because of the fear. Not everyone has the time, patience, skills, or chutzpa to write a blog—publicly.

What exactly could any Chassidic youngster expect when he/she rebels without basic survivalist tricks such as education, and support? Not much. Such a person, regardless of why they rebelled could, until not long ago, only join other rebels who like their protagonists weren’t exactly always successful. One has to therefore, cheer on an organization that helps those who want to leave and get an education, career, and a healthy lifestyle. Despite one’s feelings towards Footsteps, one should congratulate the tremendous effort and achievement it has with ‘rebels’.

I can only relate to those people I know personally, who cut of their beards and peyos and went to collage, or have successful jobs and otherwise mentally stable, very stable. One guy for instance, invited a few Chassidim to his house, enjoyed their first crack at pot, but if memory serves me well, didn’t inhale (not that this epitomizes his ‘normalcy’, but for some in our closed community it is all that counts).

This issue is still at it’s infancy, book wise. Winston did a great job, but I’m sure that she could write a sequel to what she had already written, and with her track record do another superb job.

CC,

Care to explain how an ‘unbiased’ book would have looked like? What ‘position’ did you find to be slanted?

Skeleton said...

Yes, "Mendy" was released on DVD recently.

I do think AAC was being nitpicky and certainly guilty of the PR "Kol Yisrael Areivim" shtick. Yes, there are some erroneous conclusions, misrepresentations, and suggestions in the book. It's not meant to be the Chasidpedia. As for being one-sided, it is a book about the rebels, isn't it? He's losing sight of the forest for the trees, unless he expects a chapter condemning the rebels to hellfire.

Let me quote this:
"there is virtually no suicide rate in the Hasidic community".
This is a. impossible to know in a community that is abnormally hush-hush about such issues b. suicide is an extreme measure that must be facilitated by a means (weapon, drugs, etc.) and a catalyst. Few in our communities meet the criteria, baruch hashem. BUT, the numbers on antidepressents should be a good indicator of what the suicide rate could've been.

"not to get noticed appearing to enjoy herself too much", that's fabrication. Can you cite a reference please?
No, you cite a "reference" of a handful of recreational activities considered acceptable for women other than shopping and bikur cholim parties, and then we'll see how fabricated this is.

So which is it? As a Hassid, can you watch a movie or can’t you???
BS. Every single mosed would have a serious problem with a "hassid watching a movie", be it at home or in a motel in New Jersey.

Also A Chussid said...

Skeleton

”I do think AAC was being nitpicky”

”Yes, there are some erroneous conclusions, misrepresentations”

Let me try to put this mildly… don’t these two statements contradict each other???

”As for being one-sided, it is a book about the rebels, isn't it? He's losing sight of the forest for the trees, unless he expects a chapter condemning the rebels to hellfire.”

My problem with Hella’s book was not that it was one sided (if only it was one sided). My problem was that she had deliberately in a very subtle and conniving way mocked an entire culture. She accused the Chasidic lifestyle for being the sole reason for Chaisidm to rebel.

In my open letter to Hella I had five direct points that I took issue with, you only addressed three I wonder why (or rather I don’t).

And now to your criticism to my criticism…

”This is a. impossible to know in a community that is abnormally hush-hush about such issues.”

And if you know anything about the Chasidic community you would know that news travels at the speed of lightning… When not so long ago an individual hanged himself in BP, the entire Chasidic community all over the world knew what, where, how and why. Even when Hatzuleh tried to be hush hush. And BTW the reason he hanged himself was because he couldn’t take his wife’s bitching no longer, something males across the entire globe regardless of race, religion, climatic region can relate to.

We are very secretive towards the outside world but inside Chasidishville there is something we fondly call mikveh news. Hella penetrated our community, and as such she was privy of all the inside information.

”b. suicide is an extreme measure that must be facilitated by a means (weapon, drugs, etc.) and a catalyst. Few in our communities meet the criteria, baruch hashem. BUT, the numbers on antidepressents should be a good indicator of what the suicide rate could've been.”

Bottom line Hella lied when she insinuated that there is a high suicide rate…

”No, you cite a "reference" of a handful of recreational activities considered acceptable for women other than shopping and bikur cholim parties, and then we'll see how fabricated this is.”

In all the places I went to enjoy myself I found an equal amount of Chasidic females enjoying themselves too. Regardless, Hella stated that women are not allowed to enjoy themselves ‘according to the tznius guidelines’ that yet again is a lie .

”BS. Every single mosed would have a serious problem with a "hassid watching a movie", be it at home or in a motel in New Jersey.”

That might be your opinion (which I totally disagree), however, my point was that Hella very eloquently, and quite correctly I might add, describes in great detail the approach Chasidim take towards movies and I quote,

"This is not atypical in Hasidic homes. The thinking goes like this: A young child, who does not yet have the proper foundation in the Hasidic value system and way of life can very easily be led astray by any contact at all with the outside world. An adult, however – in these communities, anyone who is married – presumably has internalized the Hasidic world view completely and unproblematically enough to be able to withstand at least limited contact with secular culture: a newspaper, maybe certain books, possibly even a movie .",

however there is a slight problem with that, Hella in chapter two states that Chasidim, even adults, cant watch movies. Again “So which is it? As a Hassid, can you watch a movie or can’t you???” Note: this question is addressed to Hella…

I would also refer you to this link.

click on this link

Anonymous said...

aac--you are certainly being nitpicky, even if you can find an erroneous conclusion, why that is a contradiction only a nitpicker would know.

Ms Winston did not blame the community for its rebels but rather how it treats their rebels, a fine distinction, that conceivably went right over your head. I wouldn’t call it nitpicking just yet, rather just a little slip, but your ‘suicide’ cry begets you a nitpicker if not worse.

Bottom line Hella lied when she insinuated that there is a high suicide rate…

After “Chanie” claims that “There is a lot of hypocrisy here among the Satmar women, and a high rate of suicide” The author writes “I also wonder: Is this true about the suicide rate? I have spoken to a variety of doctors and therapists who treat Hasidic patients, and many have remarked on the prevalence of anxiety and depressive disorders amongs Hasidim in general. Some have attributed this, in part, to the complex legacy of the Holocaust. But suicide? I haven't heard or seen any information on that…. Neither you, her or I know if it’s true, all three of us suspects that it might not be true, and in fact Winston looks to why she would claim so if it isn’t true. but you want her to rely on anecdotal mikveh news. If that is not nitpicking then what is?

She didn’t insinuate nor lie. You have a distinct understanding problem—it might be the English language perhaps.

“That might be your opinion (which I totally disagree)”.

Are you sure you know the meaning of the word “opinion”? Skeleton claimed something to be a fact, you can counter that she is lying. The truth is known to any Brooklyn Chusid—your own denials notwithstanding. I’ll never forget HR’s description of his first visit to a local blockbuster. It captured exactly the anxiety and repercussions (which granted might never occur), that one might expect when trespassing Chasidic limits.

And…you failed to cite recreations a woman could do. I know why.

Baal Devarim said...

Oy AAC, deja vu all over again.
http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006/10/unchosen.html Look in the comments.

AAC, you are extremely disingenuous, as anyone who's read the book and is familiar with Chassidish culture can clearly see. Stop being so inane if you want to be taken seriously. Your incredible kashya on the stira you've found in the book (always you with the movies) is easily answered by all insiders who know what can happen if you're seen in a theater vs. how easy it is to watch movies in the privacy of your home.

You say, "And BTW the reason he hanged himself was because he couldn’t take his wife’s bitching no longer, something males across the entire globe... can relate to". Wow. That's just... dumb. Really, I don't know how else to put it. Anyway, Yossi already addressed your issue about the suicide claims in Unchosen, but I'll add a small point: suicide is in fact more prevalent in our community than most of us like to think (though exactly by how much, I have no idea).

I personally know (or knew) at least one chassidish person whose main catalyst to commit suicide was his extreme aversion and discomfort with this lifestyle; like many, he lost his faith long before and eventually came to feel trapped and strangled by this way of life. And he did it in a terribly grisly manner, to boot. Of course, he had many other issues, as is always the case with those who take such extreme measures. But very few in the community (outside his friends and family) know it was a suicide; the Yiddish papers claimed he was killed by a Goy, and that is the way the story went in the mikvah as well. And where there's one, there usually are others.

Also A Chussid said...

Ms. Yossi

”Ms Winston did not blame the community for its rebels but rather how it treats their rebels, a fine distinction, that conceivably went right over your head.”

Will you please let Ms Winston talk for herself???

Let me quote from the book…

“One of the most striking things I came to understand during the course of this research is the power of the holocaust, and the history of the Jewish suffering in general, both in the actual lives of some Hasidic people and in the imaginations of these communities as a whole…”

“With its history of religious tolerance and commitment to pluralism, America was an ideal place for these refugees to set about recreating their way of life. However as it turned out, the very same American values that allowed these communities to flourish also enabled them to become increasingly closed and insular, shutting themselves off from the larger world and its concerns, living in fear of bringing about another Holocaust through assimilation and the abandonment of a “Torah life.” Ironically, what began as a poignant and heroic effort in the face of utter devastation and loss has led, generations later, to communities in which nonconformity can subject members to the kinds of stigmatization and ostracism that have, throughout history, characterized the treatment of Jews by the outside world.”

“Apprehending this sad irony was one of the most upsetting consequences of my involvement with this research. Work done in psychology tells us that it is not unusual for those who have been victimized to become victimizers themselves - “identification with the oppressor,” it is sometimes called…”

Yossi

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but when you have an entire book detailing a so-called society where an individual is being stigmatized and ostracized for non conformity (Ms Winston’s words), that is blaming that society for its rebelling members…

I believe you are not expecting a response on your other driveling points and childish taunts…

Also A Chussid said...

BD

”Oy AAC, deja vu all over again.”

Indeed…

”Stop being so inane if you want to be taken seriously.”

Inane or not, I don’t take myself seriously and neither do I expect to be taken seriously. I’m sorry to hear that you venture to be taken seriously, it’s futile… for me it’s all about fun, remember that…

”Your incredible kashya on the stira you've found in the book (always you with the movies) is easily answered by all insiders who know what can happen if you're seen in a theater vs. how easy it is to watch movies in the privacy of your home.”

Ironically Hella in chapter two, goes into great detail, describing Dini's - a so called Hasidic rebel - difficulty watching movies in her house , to the point that, and I quote "sometimes she and her husband would check themselves into a motel in New Jersey for a night, just to be able to watch a movie in peace",

”You say, "And BTW the reason he hanged himself was because he couldn’t take his wife’s bitching no longer, something males across the entire globe... can relate to". Wow. That's just... dumb. Really, I don't know how else to put it.”

You put it quite well, it was intended to be a dumb remark. I’m glad you were smart enough to pick up on it. Really, I planted this dumb remark to see the reaction of people. You might call it inane, I would rather call it fun… Hey that’s me… Shrug of shoulders…

About suicide in the Chasidic community, you as a Chussid should know better. I beg you to set-aside your burning disgust and hatred you have of our society, culture and religion (as you have on many occasions exhibited those sentiments in a vicious manner) and admit that the suicide rate in the Chasidic community is lower then in the general population. You might argue that this fact is not telling much about the overall contentedness of Chasidim (you probably would have a point), but can you be honest enough to at least agree that suicide is lower in our community, despite that one person you know or knew???

Skeleton said...

AAC-

Since you're going gag al gag with the nitpickiness, I'll skip those and just ask you this:

In all the places I went to enjoy myself I found an equal amount of Chasidic females enjoying themselves too.

Unless you hang out at Loehmann's for entertainment, how sanctioned exactly are those places you're hanging out at?

You seem to have a similar spiel to Rechosen's. "Ah, yes, our culture isn't that bad. Look! I even watch movies! And I go to the beach with my wife while telling everyone I'm going to a business convention! We even go clubbing sometimes!"

Except that...all of those things are 100% prohibited by those who actually represent our culture truthfully.

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

I don't see how two views on movies are a contradiction. This community consists of its individuals, the education, the authorities and the general consensus. While the latter three would not reason that a grown adult may watch films, the individuals themselves might make their own excuses. I also find that those that watch movies are usually under the assumption that "everyone does" and those that don't are convinced that "there is no tv, no movies, no notting". All absolute contradictions inside one community.

However, when we debate if movies are generally acceptable, it is unbalanced to take into consideration only what the authorities think of it. Many 'individuals' are trespassing on this guideline, and that makes for a considerable shift in how 'banned' it is. With a combination of all parties, the crack seems to be widening.

I do think the character Dini was suffering from an extra dose of paranoia, which is not unusual.

I was also bothered by the 'insider's' suggestion that the suicide rate is very high, with no decent follow up as for to the author's findings were on the subject. Chani's unfounded accusation was thrown in there and likely led the readers to an assumption that had no basis. While you, as an insider, might instinctively dismiss this claim, an unfamiliar reader would likely accept Chani's conviction over the author's skepticism.

On the same note, the book speculates if abuse is more popular in the Hassidic community. While it might very well be, we really don't know. There is no reason to suggest something so long as there are no grounds to support it.

The fact that suicide and abuse might be higher than we admit, doesn't necessarily mean we may to imply that it's high.

Anonymous said...

it should not be הקטן it should הקטנה

Anonymous said...

aac-- Are you going to use insults in lieu of arguments?

When someone talks about “an individual [that] is being stigmatized and ostracized for non conformity” they are talking about the way a community deals with a rebel.

(Perhaps your lack of English education caused you to judge Yossi a Ms.)

Anonymous said...

AAC can’t be taken seriously. He started whining about the book before he had a chance to read it (I kid you not )as per his own admission. One can speculate what the reason are. I suspect rejection…

Baal Devarim said...

AAC:
"I don’t take myself seriously and neither do I expect to be taken seriously... for me it’s all about fun, remember that"

Alrighty then. I'll try to remember that in the future.

"I beg you to set-aside your burning disgust and hatred you have of our society"

I was going to comment on this, but then I remembered (just in the nick of time) that you don't expect to be taken seriously and it's all about the fun. Well, Ha Ha Ha! What fun!

"at least agree that suicide is lower in our community, despite that one person you know or knew???"

I've never implied otherwise. I don't know that, but I strongly suspect that it is lower, especially if you compare the chassidish suicide rate to society as a whole rather than to particular subgroups.

Psychologists have long documented that in highly individualistic societies the rate of depression related illnesses tends to be higher, while in very close-knit communities the rate of anxiety related disorders (which don't lead to suicide that often) tends to be more prevalent. Anecdotally, chassidish society seems to follow this pattern.

My point was simply that I suspect the rate is much higher than you, and many of us, imagine. You seem to think you hear about all suicides in the mikvah, while in reality that is very far from the truth, effectively giving all who think so a very distorted picture.

Baal Habos said...

>I am no longer convinced that there are these two distinct dichotomies out there. Intellectual people too can have psycho/social issues that cause/ enable them to question their religion and way of life.


I was going to compose a long rebuttal to this but it's pointless.

Skeleton, start with this post http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2007/02/common-denominator.html and it's predecessor http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2007/01/four-sons.html




Believers will refuse to accept the fact that there are well adjusted normal individuals who reject Orthodox Jewish teachings for intellectaul reasons. It's a defense mechanism for believers. The existense of people like me, who had no beefs with Judaism and decide after many decades of a happy Yiddish life that it's all a sham, is a theological thorn in their side.


Hoizen,
>Another point; Once our *intellectual rebel* has giving up on yiddishkiet and God, what is to stop him/her from embracing those very same temptations that lured the *emotional rebels* away in the first place? Bal Devorem's and Hasidic Rebel's drugapaids, are good examples


After concluding that Judaism is a sham, how long must one wait before indulging in the the full spectrum of perfectly benign human activities such as mixing meat & milk? Six months? A year? Five years? 10 years? What would satisfy you?

Your are attempting to discount intellectual rebellion by associating it with rebellion based on emotional reasons. You've got it bass-ackwards. The existence of people like me exonerate those that leave for any other reason. This includes shaitel wearing women who just want to feel the wind blowing through their own hair.


>"Intellectual people too can have psycho/social issues that cause/ enable them to question their religion and way of life."

Emotional people too can have intellectual issues that cause/enable them to rebel from their religion and way of life.



Shiptzle, I'm glad this was your first book review. The book has a special place in my heart. As BD pointed out, see http://baalhabos.blogspot.com/2006/10/unchosen.html

hoezentragerin said...

"Believers will refuse to accept the fact that there are well adjusted normal individuals who reject Orthodox Jewish teachings for intellectual reasons. It's a defense mechanism for believers. The existence of people like me, who had no beefs with Judaism and decide after many decades of a happy Yiddish life that it's all a sham, is a theological thorn in their side".

Boss,

I suggest you reread my statements before jumping to projections.

"Intellectual people too can have psycho/social issues that cause/ enable them to question their religion and way of life".

Key word-- CAN have, not MUST have, and since plenty of them DO have, it isn't very scientific trying to divide the camps in two.


"Another point; Once our *intellectual rebel* has giving up on yiddishkiet and God, what is to stop him/her from embracing those very same temptations that lured the *emotional rebels* away in the first place? Bal Devorem's and Hasidic Rebel's drugapaids, are good examples".

"After concluding that Judaism is a sham, how long must one wait before indulging in the the full spectrum of perfectly benign human activities such as mixing meat & milk? Six months? A year? Five years? 10 years? What would satisfy you?"

Boss, unless you believe that the temptation to mix milk and meat was the catalyst that led our rebel astray, I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

"Believers will refuse to accept the fact that there are well adjusted normal individuals who reject Orthodox Jewish teachings for intellectual reasons. It's a defense mechanism for believers".

I object to being painted with that wide brush stroke by an artist who obviously doesn't know my color.

Here's a related comment I left on Shtriemel's blog recently in respnse to Jewish Philosopher.


Hoezentragerin said...
"my professional and personal experience with atheists would lead me to believe that many had very unhappy childhoods (and/or horrible religious experiences) , and could never believe in a loving and caring God".

We hear this explanation all the time, but I don't get it.
If we are going to blame an unhappy childhood and emotional distress for anti-religious and atheistic views, we also have to conclude that those of us who do accept and embrace our parent's views do so for emotional reasons *only*.

From a psychosocial perspective, all this proves is that people don't mess with the status que, unless they have strong emotional resentment towards the establishment, and/or little to lose.
It tells us nothing about religion's validity.

Anonymous said...

As the typical Boro Park yungerman who tries to consider himself "ofgeklared" I practically ran to buy the book immediately upon it's release when I read the reviews on chassidishe ladies attending night clubs! boy was I disappointed. Besides being terribly biased in a sense that she accepted anything thrown her way by these obviously disturbed fellows - Yossie in particular who anyone who knows him personally in Boro Park knows he's missing a screw or two.... She gives the impression that once she stumbled on to her first "case" she couldn’t get enough of it. She gives the impression as if there are soooo many of these characters’ out there yet she can only come up with these few who gave the impression that lack something else besides yiddishkeit! from personal experience when ever a bunch of "guys" get together for the sake of conversation once you bring on any topic involving "dirt" there will always be one there who will make it sound as if there is much more you don't know about that he as a cool guy does have knowledge of. for instance try mentioning that a friend of yours was discovered to be smoking pot and the next fellow will say "ah! You think he's the only one you can not imagine how many people are doing drugs in Boro Park..." yet he wont be able to mention more then 1 or 2 that we all know in it being that we such a tight knit community. Mention a chassidishe lady who was found to have an affair once and she will already be considered a "hoar" then you’ll hear about countless such girls yet no one will be able to mention even one more - it makes us excited and gives us the opportunity to fantasize when we hear of such cases and so we tend to blow it out of proportion. That is exactly what that book sounds like. Although I agree that we tend to push some issues under the rug and some topics are taken too far this book got it's facts wrong (a couple getting in to their car to be able to listen to "fremde" music?! come on!) and caused a tremendous chillul hashem by all those who gave it the PR it so badly sought.

Baal Habos said...

Hoizen,

>Key word-- CAN have, not MUST have, and since plenty of them DO have, it isn't very scientific trying to divide the camps in two.

You need to back up that assertion "plenty of them do". We have no idea how many intellectual "skeptics' there are out there. It *could* be that only those with emotional issues are the ones that we "see".

>>"After concluding that Judaism is a sham, how long must one wait before indulging in the the full spectrum of perfectly benign human activities such as mixing meat & milk? Six months? A year? Five years? 10 years? What would satisfy you?"

>Boss, unless you believe that the temptation to mix milk and meat was the catalyst that led our rebel astray, I don't understand the point you are trying to make.


Meat and Milk was just an example. My point is that it appeared, erroneously perhaps, as if you attempted to lump everyone into one category; but I feel it's important not to do so. Actions taken after the intellectual heresy of the mind should not be confused with actions taken before. The distinction is important, because to do so, opens skeptics up to the charge that their thinking was biased by their urges.


>I object to being painted with that wide brush stroke by an artist who obviously doesn't know my color.


Upon closer re-rereading of your comments, I may have jumped down your throat without good cause. Sorry. Mea Culpa.

hoezentragerin said...

Pertaining to the issue regarding the prevalence of suicide in our world, I think there's one cardinal variable you've all failed to factor in.
Taking one's life according to the torah, is one of the gravest transgressions a person can commit.
Many frum people would hardly have a qualm cheating on their spouse, but the severity of committing adultery according to halach, is their deterrent.
Judaism's harsh views regarding suicide too, might be the ultimate deterrent for many depressed individuals.

Anonymous said...

This discussion is quite depressing. One thing is certain, a correction is due. We need to fix some things and get our house in order.
To those among us who believe in G-D, we need to put our (quite brilliant) minds together and figure out how to fix this mess. If not for our sake, for our kid’s sake.
What would be the top 5 things you'd like to see changed and how would you plan on implementing your ideas?

I for one would like to see more genuine Judaism taught in the schools in place of Kokosh cake Judaism that is being fed now. Kids should at least have thorough knowledge of Tanach as well as the chronology of the Jews, where we lived when, who were the leaders, how their outlook differed from Jews living elsewhere etc.

My other suggestion would be to have kids graduate high school and go to college. Let it be mechon leparnush, I don't care. 18 year old boys are getting married with just enough skills to work at B&H making $600 a week. And as the Gemureh says somewhere (I think in Kedishin) that a father who doesn't teach his son a trade, teaches him to steal [ps, med, sec 8...].

Which leads me to my next point. Can we go back to the time when a word of a religious Jew was known to be good as gold? What’s up with all the lying and cheating? Gezel Akim is usser!

Number 4, teach kids basic manners and mentchlichkiet. It happens every day that you walk into shul and you can't breathe because some guy just dropped a fart bomb. Thankfully, use of deodorant is ever increasing B"H.

#5, The rebbes should make rigele rigele roigez.

How to implement these ideas? Well, how about I write about them on Shpitzels blog?

Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

DQ - Thanks for the comment. Here's my response:

Sigh, sigh, sigh.

I AM writing a blog because these things bother me, and most anyone would consider me a dreamer for thinking it has a purpose other than venting. They are more or less right, but creating an online voice still couldn't hurt. Still, a better plan is needed.

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